Further talks with Michael Guen:
Q. When GBZ talks about principle, which I take to mean some kind of ethical worldview that allows one to see the bigger picture (beyond a dualistic view of success and failure) and brings one into harmony with our surroundings, does he have strong views about how that can be inculcated? Reading the other sections on the book, and also given the timing when BGQ came into existence, I assume that his thinking is that is best done through a Neo-Confucian education (which encompasses the three religions)?
A. GBZ was very certain about how the bigger worldview can be cultivated. Educated in the strict Neo-Confucian tradition, in addition to GBT and GBT's family members, GBZ had numerous private tutors who helped him solidify the wen wu shuang chuan "scholar-warrior double attainment" (and beyond viz. Way of the Saint) life ideal. I might note that historically BGQ arose in the latter Qing dynasty, a time when Neo-Confucian culture was prevalent. Although this doesn't necessarily mean that the BGQ system had a Daoist, Buddhist, and Confucian basis, the fact that three successive generations of lineage holders were employed in the Imperial Palace where Neo-Confucianism dominated seems to suggest this. I'm mentioning this to press the point that Neo-Confucian education may not have been something pursued by GBZ independently from his BGQ forebears. But rather that the plethora of Neo-Confucian proverbs and philosophical references he imparted in conjunction with BGQ's physical methodology might have been handed down from Dong Haichuan, Yin Fu, and to GBT as part of the original transmission. Given the superstructure of the BGZ system that GBZ passed on, it is difficult for me to conceive BGQ as a solely Daoist phenomenon.
Q. Besides a strong foundation in the Chinese classics (Four Books) and readers like the 3 character classic, thousand word classic and classic of filial piety what other teaching methods did he have to teach his younger relatives, probably also leading by example – this point is also important to me as I am trying to give my children an education that straddles both east and west.
A. Leading by example is by far the purest way to transmit life principles and ethics. GBZ emphasized "family style" teaching, and that living day to day with the Shifu yields the most complete training and education. As for other teaching methods, reading classics, verse memorization, calligraphy, and zuo ren basic etiquette (eg. how to treat guests, letter writing format - salutation, proper way to fold the paper, place it in the envelope, etc) were high on his list. I am sure he would have approved of Chinese painting and music, but did not introduce them to me. Regards modern day childraising, I agree with the a approach you've set forth in your other posts: that one's native language and arts must be inculcated very thoroughly in a child if the culture is to be carried on another generation. If in a bi- or multi-cultural parenting situation, I recommend that parents decide at the outset what cultures they foremost wish to impart and first lay that down as a foundation for everything else.
Q. Surely cultivation of heart can be achieved through other traditions such as Buddhism alone, or Christianity? Perhaps this is the point you were making when you were talking about how Tai Chi is bifurcated into both a physical and spiritual practice, that in an age of incomplete traditions we should do our best to mix and match traditions and even a broken tradition can be redeemed by the right mindset.
A. Thanks to GBZ's enormous efforts,I was surprised to discover that the Confucian heart is very similar to the Buddhist and Christian (as well as orthodox Daoist) heart. A difference however is that Confucianism is firmly centered on matters regarding people (human relationships/human concerns) in contrast to Buddhism, Daoism, and Christianity that certain emphasize proper conduct in human relationships, yet for sake of realms lying beyond. In the latter chapters of my book, but particularly in chapter 12, GBZ makes the leap to faith by introducing the non-dual concept of formlessness and "principled change" in his distinction between the path of the hoodlum and the path of the Saint. Yet he pauses at this threshold. This compared to spiritual religious practices that allow the dialogue to turn into "certainty". For example, if I live this way I am certain to attain salvation. GBZ called this insistence on certainty "killing the inquiry." Shu li bian hua "principled change" to him meant at all costs keeping an inquiry alive, and open to changing one's viewpoint on a matter if proven incorrect. I agree with you that we are in an eclectic age of mixing and matching traditions as you say. However, I am also cognizant that combining even 10 traditions that haven't grasped the da yuan ze, essential principle, may risk yielding a dead inquiry thus missing the point about the heart.
Q. Having grown up both in the east and the west, I also share many of the issues that you faced when growing up, but I did feel that I experienced the benefit of having strong roots to ground me in Asia, where my family continued to reside. To what extent do you believe in the idea of a collective racial identity embedded in your DNA? Some of my studies when I was taking yoga teacher training was directed towards the first chakra which is meant to be the storehouse for the collective consciousness – the “we”. Thus this chakra informs who we are through the experience of our ancestors.
A. I think you're asking a nature versus nurture question. I am 100% Chinese by blood, yet my family has been in the west for three generations. There is no question that western upbringing has influenced my idea of the collective consciousness, and identify less with the "purebred" one-culture root. At the same time I have more of a sense of cultural rooting than some of my nephews and nieces who are not 100% Chinese by blood. I'm sure this is related to this facet of my background, but have seen that my interpretation of the complete BGQ system GBZ transmitted is different than He Jinghan's. It will be very interesting, once we come together and compare our interpretations, to discover the advantages of one or both our perspectives in plumbing the depths of an authentic ancient Chinese mystery school (which I believe BGQ is). Relatedly, I feel it important when doing chakra work to account for the entire system of chakras at once, as each contributes to the total picture. Information drawn from the first chakra alone in my opinion must be taken together with the second chakra, third chakra, etc. The exact same analogy applies to the study of BGZ where training all eight mother trigram palms is necessary to cultivate/develop/master the whole person.
Q. In relation to the above, what difficulties have you experienced trying to teach BGQ to non-Chinese people? Is this why GBZ wouldn’t allow you appoint 6th generation lineage holders, and only called them students of Michael Guen? I fear that if this connection is lost then we are left with the empty forms without a living tradition to animate it – if you have ever been to Singapore, I believe this is what has happened to Chinese culture there in terms of the institutions, although some of the people still try to reclaim their Chineseness they don’t know how. Maybe you are trying to build something new to accommodate this? Perhaps I should have read your other books on BGQ before asking this question.
A. The greatest difficulty I've experienced teaching BGQ to non-Chinese speaking people is conveying concepts surrounding character-etiquette, principled change and principle above strength. This interestingly in comparison to tai ji quan's philosophy and ideas - "softness overcomes hardness" for instance - that I have found are comparatively easy for non-Chinese speaking people to grasp. The approaches taken to the same matter by BGQ and TJQ so radically differ. Since the setting in which the story took place (80's and 90's), I have received permission to appoint 6th generation lineage holders. At the time GBZ regarded what I was teaching as "Michael Guen's", he saw I was so far off the mark in terms of self-understanding and character maturity, and thus perspective. Now that I've come a ways in grasping the entirety of the BGQ system, I can look from the other side of the fence and see the emptiness in institutions you talk about. I think the cross-cultural mixing is an inevitability and that since Communist China, traditional Chinese culture will never be the same. I am happy to hear you report that Neo-Confucianism, Daoism, etc are coming back. I'm very interested in this. Here in North America I've devoted my energies to taking the essences from Chinese culture and finding useful applications especially in the areas of medicine, mental, and social health.
Q. Another observation – some of your feelings, like anomie and GBZ’s observation that death informs life seem to be quite universal (cf. Heidegger) and not only a Eastern phenomenon. What do you think leads certain people and not others to have this sense of restlessness, is it karmic (through strong spiritual practice in previous lives) or it is a universal phenomenon and some people are better at repressing the issue through throwing themselves into work, drugs or what not?
A. I feel past life is the biggest factor determining what karma people come into and how they are able to deal with it. Over 30 years experience teaching and healing has taught me that one cannot judge a book by the cover in terms of who may ultimately fulfill their spiritual potential in a lifetime. The playing field in which one deals with a karmic challenge is more predictable, however, as this is very much determined by one's biological history and external life circumstance.
Q. When GBZ talks about principle, which I take to mean some kind of ethical worldview that allows one to see the bigger picture (beyond a dualistic view of success and failure) and brings one into harmony with our surroundings, does he have strong views about how that can be inculcated? Reading the other sections on the book, and also given the timing when BGQ came into existence, I assume that his thinking is that is best done through a Neo-Confucian education (which encompasses the three religions)?
A. GBZ was very certain about how the bigger worldview can be cultivated. Educated in the strict Neo-Confucian tradition, in addition to GBT and GBT's family members, GBZ had numerous private tutors who helped him solidify the wen wu shuang chuan "scholar-warrior double attainment" (and beyond viz. Way of the Saint) life ideal. I might note that historically BGQ arose in the latter Qing dynasty, a time when Neo-Confucian culture was prevalent. Although this doesn't necessarily mean that the BGQ system had a Daoist, Buddhist, and Confucian basis, the fact that three successive generations of lineage holders were employed in the Imperial Palace where Neo-Confucianism dominated seems to suggest this. I'm mentioning this to press the point that Neo-Confucian education may not have been something pursued by GBZ independently from his BGQ forebears. But rather that the plethora of Neo-Confucian proverbs and philosophical references he imparted in conjunction with BGQ's physical methodology might have been handed down from Dong Haichuan, Yin Fu, and to GBT as part of the original transmission. Given the superstructure of the BGZ system that GBZ passed on, it is difficult for me to conceive BGQ as a solely Daoist phenomenon.
Q. Besides a strong foundation in the Chinese classics (Four Books) and readers like the 3 character classic, thousand word classic and classic of filial piety what other teaching methods did he have to teach his younger relatives, probably also leading by example – this point is also important to me as I am trying to give my children an education that straddles both east and west.
A. Leading by example is by far the purest way to transmit life principles and ethics. GBZ emphasized "family style" teaching, and that living day to day with the Shifu yields the most complete training and education. As for other teaching methods, reading classics, verse memorization, calligraphy, and zuo ren basic etiquette (eg. how to treat guests, letter writing format - salutation, proper way to fold the paper, place it in the envelope, etc) were high on his list. I am sure he would have approved of Chinese painting and music, but did not introduce them to me. Regards modern day childraising, I agree with the a approach you've set forth in your other posts: that one's native language and arts must be inculcated very thoroughly in a child if the culture is to be carried on another generation. If in a bi- or multi-cultural parenting situation, I recommend that parents decide at the outset what cultures they foremost wish to impart and first lay that down as a foundation for everything else.
Q. Surely cultivation of heart can be achieved through other traditions such as Buddhism alone, or Christianity? Perhaps this is the point you were making when you were talking about how Tai Chi is bifurcated into both a physical and spiritual practice, that in an age of incomplete traditions we should do our best to mix and match traditions and even a broken tradition can be redeemed by the right mindset.
A. Thanks to GBZ's enormous efforts,I was surprised to discover that the Confucian heart is very similar to the Buddhist and Christian (as well as orthodox Daoist) heart. A difference however is that Confucianism is firmly centered on matters regarding people (human relationships/human concerns) in contrast to Buddhism, Daoism, and Christianity that certain emphasize proper conduct in human relationships, yet for sake of realms lying beyond. In the latter chapters of my book, but particularly in chapter 12, GBZ makes the leap to faith by introducing the non-dual concept of formlessness and "principled change" in his distinction between the path of the hoodlum and the path of the Saint. Yet he pauses at this threshold. This compared to spiritual religious practices that allow the dialogue to turn into "certainty". For example, if I live this way I am certain to attain salvation. GBZ called this insistence on certainty "killing the inquiry." Shu li bian hua "principled change" to him meant at all costs keeping an inquiry alive, and open to changing one's viewpoint on a matter if proven incorrect. I agree with you that we are in an eclectic age of mixing and matching traditions as you say. However, I am also cognizant that combining even 10 traditions that haven't grasped the da yuan ze, essential principle, may risk yielding a dead inquiry thus missing the point about the heart.
Q. Having grown up both in the east and the west, I also share many of the issues that you faced when growing up, but I did feel that I experienced the benefit of having strong roots to ground me in Asia, where my family continued to reside. To what extent do you believe in the idea of a collective racial identity embedded in your DNA? Some of my studies when I was taking yoga teacher training was directed towards the first chakra which is meant to be the storehouse for the collective consciousness – the “we”. Thus this chakra informs who we are through the experience of our ancestors.
A. I think you're asking a nature versus nurture question. I am 100% Chinese by blood, yet my family has been in the west for three generations. There is no question that western upbringing has influenced my idea of the collective consciousness, and identify less with the "purebred" one-culture root. At the same time I have more of a sense of cultural rooting than some of my nephews and nieces who are not 100% Chinese by blood. I'm sure this is related to this facet of my background, but have seen that my interpretation of the complete BGQ system GBZ transmitted is different than He Jinghan's. It will be very interesting, once we come together and compare our interpretations, to discover the advantages of one or both our perspectives in plumbing the depths of an authentic ancient Chinese mystery school (which I believe BGQ is). Relatedly, I feel it important when doing chakra work to account for the entire system of chakras at once, as each contributes to the total picture. Information drawn from the first chakra alone in my opinion must be taken together with the second chakra, third chakra, etc. The exact same analogy applies to the study of BGZ where training all eight mother trigram palms is necessary to cultivate/develop/master the whole person.
Q. In relation to the above, what difficulties have you experienced trying to teach BGQ to non-Chinese people? Is this why GBZ wouldn’t allow you appoint 6th generation lineage holders, and only called them students of Michael Guen? I fear that if this connection is lost then we are left with the empty forms without a living tradition to animate it – if you have ever been to Singapore, I believe this is what has happened to Chinese culture there in terms of the institutions, although some of the people still try to reclaim their Chineseness they don’t know how. Maybe you are trying to build something new to accommodate this? Perhaps I should have read your other books on BGQ before asking this question.
A. The greatest difficulty I've experienced teaching BGQ to non-Chinese speaking people is conveying concepts surrounding character-etiquette, principled change and principle above strength. This interestingly in comparison to tai ji quan's philosophy and ideas - "softness overcomes hardness" for instance - that I have found are comparatively easy for non-Chinese speaking people to grasp. The approaches taken to the same matter by BGQ and TJQ so radically differ. Since the setting in which the story took place (80's and 90's), I have received permission to appoint 6th generation lineage holders. At the time GBZ regarded what I was teaching as "Michael Guen's", he saw I was so far off the mark in terms of self-understanding and character maturity, and thus perspective. Now that I've come a ways in grasping the entirety of the BGQ system, I can look from the other side of the fence and see the emptiness in institutions you talk about. I think the cross-cultural mixing is an inevitability and that since Communist China, traditional Chinese culture will never be the same. I am happy to hear you report that Neo-Confucianism, Daoism, etc are coming back. I'm very interested in this. Here in North America I've devoted my energies to taking the essences from Chinese culture and finding useful applications especially in the areas of medicine, mental, and social health.
Q. Another observation – some of your feelings, like anomie and GBZ’s observation that death informs life seem to be quite universal (cf. Heidegger) and not only a Eastern phenomenon. What do you think leads certain people and not others to have this sense of restlessness, is it karmic (through strong spiritual practice in previous lives) or it is a universal phenomenon and some people are better at repressing the issue through throwing themselves into work, drugs or what not?
A. I feel past life is the biggest factor determining what karma people come into and how they are able to deal with it. Over 30 years experience teaching and healing has taught me that one cannot judge a book by the cover in terms of who may ultimately fulfill their spiritual potential in a lifetime. The playing field in which one deals with a karmic challenge is more predictable, however, as this is very much determined by one's biological history and external life circumstance.
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